Greatness leaves clues (E04)

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TWO DADS A coaching conversation about life - Episode 04

Greatness leaves clues

Luke Fenwick 0:04

Hello, everyone, thanks for joining us for Episode Four greatness leaves clues. If you enjoy, please hit that subscribe button. Much of what we seek is required in an instance. Often we love the idea of being elite or world class that shy away from the actual work. People are really just born into being tops of their fields, you have many from the comfort of that couch and look at the end result of years of labor and think it's just God given talent and impossible to achieve. Habits connect with our emotions. So are you setting yourself up for greatness? We're just wishing for the magic to happen. Let's get into the show and discuss.

Welcome. Sean, how are you? How's your world just moved into the new house? I can see a new background for us. And how's the coaching business? Tell us what what's news?

Sean Oldham 0:58

Well, news is honestly like, yes, it was a hard day it was it was a challenging week, you know, to get the old place ready for new renters and to renovate the floors and get this thing ready for you know, a toddler and a newborn to come so it's it's been a week you know, still in boxes but no more space now grateful to be here. always grateful to be here had to put you know, coaching business on pause for a couple of weeks to just focus on getting all of this done. But you know back in and now happy to be sitting here with you my friend. Yeah, thank you for asking. But But you like no bigger question no pun intended is your your any day now? I know I'm asking you that's like the start of every show. But like we're actually any day now. Right? Like any day, you're gonna have a daughter way. Any day, she's technically Jew in eight days, I get the feeling that shall either come earlier, we might need to go in and, and, and have a come a little bit early. So we've had some, some kind of ups and downs and some challenges. Nothing too, too dramatic by any stretch of the imagination when you have perspective of, of many other things. But yeah, we're not too far off having little baby girl arrive and joining our very small family. So it's been it's been wild. It's been a wild couple of weeks.

Luke Fenwick 2:19

As some emotional kind of stuff along the way too. But it's been good.

Sean Oldham 2:22

Yeah, you've been busy, you probably couldn't have had a busier month leading up either. Could you?

Luke Fenwick 2:26

No, it's been an incredible month to be quite honest, I've had the opportunity to I spoke at a big event the other week and online events. So that was really good. You know, I really enjoyed that. The coaching business has been like this, this has been the biggest month that I've had, which has been great. I really enjoyed it. And then you know, it just everything always throws a challenge, but you just kind of go through it and go Okay, here we are. And off we go. But, but life is good. I cannot complain for one moment. Not one. But let's let's kind of roll into it. Because I'm really mindful that last time we did a show it was it was a hour plus so let's, let's kind of keep rolling. And so let's get into this, which is just some, some content we love from people that have, you know, inspired us or maybe even shaped, shaped who we are and what we do and you've got something from David Goggins ex navy seal. Incredible, incredible man, when you look at the athletic accomplishments that he does, if people aren't familiar with David Goggins, check it out. And there is this line that says every imaginable reason to fall in life turns into quite possibly the hardest man on earth. Like he had an incredible credible story. So, so talk to us, why does this resonate so much with you?

Sean Oldham 3:42

Yeah, well, I'm not gonna I mean, his information is fine to Bill everywhere. So you know, we're not gonna spend this podcast talking just about David Goggins and telling his story but Coles notes shortest that I can give it is you know, African American men you know grew up with you know, a father that was abusive you know broke broken home you know, the the demographics of like the the statistics that that usually leads to failure, right it doesn't lead to like a multimillionaire potentially fittest man on earth ultimate persevere right. But you know, in terms of greatness leaves clues right just kind of like debunking the myth of you know, like just just wanting it and you will have it right or you know, just that people are born with it. And that's it right is like that's why I wanted to kind of find examples today that show how untrue that is right? Like you you have a person that started that life I believe in like buffalo new york and then you know, moved to Gary Indiana. For the majority of his like the rest of his youth and his his high school life. You know, his his stepfather was shot dead in his own home in Gary, Indiana. The he's a blog and he's a black man. And the Klu Klux Klan headquarters is you know, within like, pretty close range of Gary, Indiana. So back then you can just imagine Imagine what the lifestyle was right? So how does this man turn into a man that is the only person to have ever done the Navy SEALs? Hell Week Three times in a year, right? How does he be the only person who ever done Navy SEALs like delta and something else, right? Rangers in the US Army Training, like the only person to have ever done all of them. And then he started running 130 mile races and 100 mile races and he ran 100 mile race never having to run a full marathon and almost broke his entire body. So the lesson from David Goggins, right, like the the biggest lesson from David Goggins and greatness leaving clues Is he really believes in the Buddhist adage that, you know, all life is suffering, you know, he is to the extreme of believing that you must suffer if you want to succeed. Now, not everybody fine. Like, like, completely agrees with this view, in the view, maybe more of the hardcore is he does have a big following, but like, some do disagree that you don't have to be that militant. I fall in line with the Goggins approach, Luke, like, like to me, you know, anytime I've ever gotten anything worth worth having in life, it wasn't necessarily always fun, and it wasn't necessarily always easy, but it just kind of, you know, came from persisting, not necessarily to the Goggins level, I mean, I've done a half Iron Man, I do want to do a full, I'm not a runner's body. So I'm not going for ultras, but you know, I do want to do a full Ironman, but the clue there, right, the clue is just, you know, like dogged determination and persistence and pushing through pain, right? pushing through the voice in your head, that tries to stop you when discomfort is approaching, right? Like, we all have those mechanisms that, you know, our evolutionary machinery tries to stop us when we get close to success. When we start getting into the unknown, even though it's potentially really good. minds only job keep you safe. Right? So like, the Goggins model is, it doesn't really matter where you came from, right? You don't need to be silver spoon fed. It's just how hard Are you willing to go every day? And the hard doesn't have to be physical, it can be mental exertion, but what are you willing to give in return for the greatness?

Luke Fenwick 7:08

Yeah, he's an incredible man, you know, listening to him and watching him on a number of different podcasts that I enjoy. Certainly, the message seems to be that he walks towards whatever the fear might exist within him. So he is he is not one that sits there and thinks that he can mentally work himself out of a situation, he'll say, the challenge that's in front of him, and he'll take the physical act to head towards it. So for example, there was a story, I can't remember who it was, and he and they were doing all of these kind of tests, you know, knock Oculus, goggles and whatnot. And they had these people within shark tanks and apparently, he has fear of kind of sharks. And they're saying to him, okay, you know, who wants to do this, this routine, say how the brain kind of works and whatnot, he was like, I'll do it, put me on with the sharks. And that was his just immediate move towards the things that was challenging and fearful for him. And I think that's a really, really powerful messages that often we shirk, away from the things exactly what you're talking about. Our mind goes, Hey, fight or flight, that whole pace, let's go away from it. And he's like, No, no, no, I'm heading towards it. Because if I head towards that, and beat that, then I'm one step closer to where I want to get to. And his training and his mindset is, is absolutely incredible. But you made mention before, you know very briefly about the triathlons and, and half Ironman, and I know the full Ironman is the goal. But how did you get into these? And what is that about? Can you share that?

Sean Oldham 8:34

I actually didn't tell you this before you answered this question. You might have a hint. But David Goggins. It was me and a couple of friends that decided to sign up for triathlon together. But it was, it was hearing David Goggins in the first time I ever heard him on a podcast, like somebody who like is like, it's, it's when you know, you know, the concept that like, you can hear something 1000 times but it's until you're ready to hear it that it clicks. Right. And and, you know, it's not like anything I heard him say was, was revolutionary, but it was when I heard this guy who has won the Badwater race, right, the 135 mile race through Death Valley in like California, it's California, right? Like I know, anyways, it's it's arguably the hardest race on the planet. And he's won it in podiums multiple times. Like to do it a second time. I don't understand why you'd want to do it a second time. But I heard him say, I hate running. Right, like I despise running. And that's why I do it. Right. Like, I also hate brushing my teeth and eating too, but I want to be alive and I want my teeth. Right. So like, that's the point. You know what I mean? Like, that's really the point. And until I understood that, becoming an entrepreneur wasn't possible. You know what I mean? Like, I was gonna stay in my lane, playing it safe in corporate roles, and just collect my paycheck, and that was gonna be it, right. So like, Goggins is one of those like, you know, indirect mentors in my life that like I signed up for the triathlon. It was weird. It was like a weird synchronicity. My friend said, do you want to do a triathlon two days after hearing the Goggins podcast or something like that? And I answered Yes. Without even hesitating right. And it was, it was glad I did. Because, you know, even though I'm holding off on the, the Iron Man goal for, you know, until the kids are a little bit older, that is going to happen, and I'm never gonna stop doing these races because there's just something about it. You know, there's something about the competition being around all these other people like the racing, other people trying to push themselves. It's just it's infectious man, you know what I mean? And like, you forget that it's hard, like when you're doing it, you almost forget that it's hard. So that's, that's kind of the why and the why will never stop.

Luke Fenwick 10:42

Tell me more till that makes sense. Keep going. Talk to me more about that.

Sean Oldham 10:47

Yeah, well, I mean, it's, it's just kind of it's one of those things that I feel I genuinely feel that like you, whenever you stop using your you're signaling to the world or you know, the universe or whatever you want to call it, that you're ready to let go of it. Right, you're ready for it to atrophy, you're ready for things to slide, you're ready for old age. You know what I mean? I genuinely believe that, because why do people age at different rates? You know, I mean, why do you look at somebody and you're like, wow, you know, they're there, you know, that person is like, 60, and they look far older than my parents at 75. And it's not to be mean. But part of it is mindset, part of it is what you believe, and part of it is how you behave, right. And if you stop using your body, and stop challenging yourself, like both, even though you can't see it mentally, both mentally and physically, once you stop challenging yourself, you are signaling to your body, that you're okay with this turning to mush, you don't need it anymore for the hard stuff. You know what I mean? And like, that's actually a big reason. Like, in children, the recovery mechanism is always active, right? Like children, like a scar heals almost at the same time it happened, you know what I mean? Like, it's crazy, the metamorphosis and like the healing power of a child like and it stays that way, you know, through and then adolescence, and then you slowly reduces over time. So that's why exercise is so damn good for the human condition. Because you are tapping into that recovery mechanism that is so abundant in your youth, right? by exercising and pushing your body passed discomfort or tearing some muscle or doing whatever it might be, you are forcing your body back into that recovery mechanism that was organic in your youth. So you are signaling to your body. I'm not done yet. We're going to be around for a while, right. So like it is an act of self love. And like the psychological impacts of doing these things. That wasn't why I started doing triathlons. But like understanding more of the science like I will never stop. I hate running to It's awful. I'm six foot four 215 pounds, I don't love running. But you know, I do it at least once a week to signal to my body that we're gonna do things that suck. Because when we do things that suck are things that we don't like, you know, I didn't love meditating at first either stuck with that until it became something I could do. Right? It's, I think that, you know, it's about leaning into things that cause discomfort and getting comfortable with that discomfort. And then once you do, it's less intimidating, taking on new things.

Luke Fenwick 13:23

David Goggins in itself, really. And then and there's a lot to be said on how that impacts the mind as well, I know that you're talking about both there and specifically zoning in on the physical side of it. But there's nothing that says that we cannot continue to learn and expand our minds all the way through to whatever particular age and you know, there was that old adage that, you know, by the time you get to, you know, your early 20s, you kind of done and dusted and that is just not the case, it's now proven that the mind continues to find, you know, different pathways as you continue to expand your repertoire into whatever particular age and the people that are really Cognizant, all the way through to the very end, continue to learn and challenge their themselves mentally. I think that's the key as well.

Sean Oldham 14:06

No, I agree with you, 100%. It's, I think a question we genuinely would be of service to every single person would be to ask themselves, like, what do they want their old age to be like? Because I don't think a lot of people look like ask themselves that question because it's in our DNA as humans to instantly ratify, because throughout most of our history, it was beneficial to take what you could get when you could get it right. Because you we didn't have this abundance of things in general, right? We are very lucky humans to be alive today. So our impulse is to instantly gratify so you know, that is kind of how we are programmed. So to look long term and think I'm going to be an old person one day, right? I'm going to be frail, right? I'm going to be you know, fragile. I'm going to need people to look after me. Will I have that network? Well, I've created that life of love and abundance, right? But like that instant gratification without understanding why It's harming you. Again, I don't want to kind of like, you know, sound mean, or say there's only one way, but like old age might not be that fun. If you don't wake up and think and accept that, like, youth is going to escape me one day, you know, and like, it's time to start planning for how do I make that person? You know? Like, how do I how do I strengthen that person? How do I, you know, maybe get more, more joy out of the Twilight?

Luke Fenwick 15:27

Yeah, well, you know, if you go back to what what we're talking about, which is this whole greatness leave clues, and that can that can take on many different shapes. And as we're in our 20s, our greatness or idea of greatness is very, very different to what it might be as we get into our 40s and 50s. And then we start to get that glimpse of what old age could look like. So if you are not having that, that kind of vision, this is what I want my greatness to be when I'm a lot older, then you're not going to be setting yourself up in this present moment to get there. Exactly to your point, like people just don't often think about it in that particular way. And then wonder why when they get to that point in their life that things are not how they thought they might be.

Sean Oldham 16:08

Yeah, it's just one of those things like like, again, greatness leaving clues. The examples are endless. Before we got on this call. We talked about LeBron James, right NBA basketball player. I don't, again, I'm a Michael Jordan guy. So we're not going to get into who's the greatest but I can't argue the effort this man puts in, right like I like athletics is always an easy example to talk about, because you can literally see the physical output. But you know, LeBron James, not every athlete. I know he makes a lot but a lot of athletes make comparable money, and he invest about a million and a half to $2 million on his body through personal trainers, shafts, even has a hyperbaric chamber in his home that he takes naps in. I mean, like we're talking about taking every possible like that's what an investment in yourself is right? Like LeBron James knew that he had a limited amount of time to be a professional athlete. And he decided from day one, that he was going to give everything he had and invest everything he could in his body. Right? What would you say the return on that has been Luke?

Luke Fenwick 17:11

Well, he'll be if he's not already, then he'll be a billion dollar athlete at some stage or another. And he is trying to get every drop out of what he's been naturally given from a genetical point of view. He just he does all of these other things to say, Okay. You know, because every NBA player has talent, like, there's no doubt about that. They've all come from good systems, they can all play, but then when they start, you know, going further and further along, then, sometimes it's not just about that natural talent, it's all of these other things that you put into it as well. You know, is it the time in the gym? Is it the recuperation afterwards? Is it watching film, is it? How do you study the opposition, it is, you know, how you're working on technique in some of these guys, you know, they'll put up 1000 jumpers jump shots in a day. And that's a lot to actually go they're not just in there shooting shots there in there working on technique.

Sean Oldham 18:02

And listening right now just like put your arms up just a couple of times, without without a ball, and you know, pretend jumping and doing that 1000 times and then going to play a game.

Luke Fenwick 18:14

1000 times, like, you know, they'll do some of them. And there's all kinds of stories, and we really digress there a little bit. No, you're talking about the brand. But there's some amazing stories that you you hear about Kobe Brian, Hey, get up. You know, whatever time five o'clock in the morning, I'm making that up. But it was a crazy kind of, you know, get to the gym at five o'clock in the morning, hey, do his session. And then by the time the rest of his teammates were coming in at whatever time that might have been, you know, call it nine o'clock. He's already been in there for hours. Sometimes, you know, they might find him in the car, having a nap or whatever it was like, there's all these crazy stories of these people just absolutely saying yes, I might have this within me. But I'm going to do all of these other things to make sure that I just keep on pushing and pushing and pushing, and don't get to the end and reflect back and say something else could have been if I'd put in the effort.

Sean Oldham 19:06

Yeah, and that's it. I mean, I didn't love Kobe at the start of his career. And before this turns into a sports show I'm going to segue with with a question for you. But anybody listening, I did read Kobe's autobiography. And if you want to read a story about like somebody being misunderstood, but somebody's never stopping and like always pushing themselves to greatness, that that is something to read. You'll understand. No, you'll get some clues. You'll get some serious clues on greatness if you read that book. But speaking of tiny habits, Luke, you're a BJ Fogg fan. You're a big habits guy. Like big habits guy. Right. So he wrote the book "Tiny habits" you know, and it says that design your life to minimize reliance on willpower. Why do you like his work? Luke watts, I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm going to get into a little BJ Fogg but I've never heard of BJ Fogg.

Luke Fenwick 19:58

So on I love him I shouldn't say I kind of say that a bit tongue in cheek for people that can't can't say I just I really enjoy what he does, because it's really simplistic way he talks about behavior design happens when three things. So you can either have an epiphany in life, you can redesign your environment, or you can create tiny habits to get you there along the way. So he says that all of these things, three things can make you start to change your behavior, and how to habits form, it's when prompt ability, motivation come together. And there's a fourth one that I've kind of found along the way from listening to other people that he doesn't talk too much about, and its reward system. So going back into this minimizing reliance on willpower, that's the whole point for him, prompt ability, motivation and rewards. When you have those four things coming together, then it's not just about always the grit and the grind and the willpower, it's about I can see this, I've been reminded to do it, I've got the ability to do it found the internal motivation, sometimes external motivation for families, and his more reward system as well. So that kind of, if you talk about, you know, greatness, and if you talk about athletes, they have all of these things at their disposal, right? They have the prompt the ability, the motivation and the reward to do it. And sometimes reward is championships. Sometimes the motivation is family coming from a tough situation to do that. And then you know, why do sometimes they then start to fall away from greatness because maybe that motivation isn't there maybe that ability has dropped away over time but I he's fantastic or recommend to anybody that hasn't listened to his any of his kind of whether it's podcasts or listening to his tiny habits or readings, tiny habit books, he's got a couple to get hold of it simplistic styles

Sean Oldham 21:44

Is he a modern times guy? Like he's ?

Luke Fenwick 21:46

Yeah he's in modern times, guys. havior scientists, I think at Stanford University, okay, over in the States. So yeah, he's, he's fantastic. I don't know how active he is right now, to be quite honest, I haven't seen too much of light but haven't been searching for it.

Sean Oldham 22:01

Probably enjoying his life, Luke, he understands that you don't like it with greatness, like you've got to decompress.

Luke Fenwick 22:07

Well, yeah. And he also talks about find the natural time where things can fit in your routine, to have these habits as well. He talks a lot around his fitness, and I believe he lives in Malibu, or at least tiny part of the year and maybe Hawaii or something like that. But the things that he tries to implement, it's about finding those natural times in the day, and he shares a story of how he would go to the bathroom and each time and go to the bathroom and do push ups. So that was kind of the way he'd connect to things. And that was his form of, you know, being healthy and fit and, you know, building on those habits to lead to what he was saying was greatness, or what do you want them to achieve? So it doesn't always need to be hard. And, and I think that's where people sometimes, you know, trip it up, and I know, you've got some great thoughts on that is that they think things are just so so hard to get to where they want to get to, and it's about breaking it down. And just going Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

Sean Oldham 23:01

Well, they was with me, Luke, like Case in point like, they was me, right? Like, I've had to do more than one one ad in my life, right. But like, all throughout my 20s That's why I chose the bottle, right? And like, again, like I don't, I don't shy away from my alcoholic story anymore. It's like, it's like Case in point because I'm, I can help anybody with it. I want to right because like, I want to, I want to I want to help anybody, like prevent a decade or more of like, discomfort and like, the thing is, like, there's so many people in the rooms that I went into recovery with, that had such a longer time than me like, like getting out at 30 I was still lucky, right? But like my belief, like my my systems, my habits, like my understanding, like, I didn't have any of it. I didn't know where to go. Right. And it's like, it can be reshaped, right, like, it can be reshaped, and it's just about you know, like, the old coach of the Toronto Raptors had a saying that I loved right, just like pound the rock, just pound the rock to get better, right? And it's the same kind of thing is like, just keep hammering the stone, right? keep hammering the stone. And then eventually you have, you know, a beautiful polished, you know, like Spears God right. So, it's, uh, you know, and yeah, it's, it's, I'm so happy I got onto the habits piece. Because one thing I want to say here, that I think is very important that stumped me for for a lot of my life as I started to read, you know, when I will I have said this before, but when I first went into recovery, my mind was blown as to how one week ago, I couldn't walk past the drink. I couldn't walk past a liquor store, I was an absolute massive human. And this week, I'm not interested at all, I just want to go back to another meeting and be around other people that like are in this place that I desperately want to get to. And my mind instantly was fascinated with habit change, right? And now since then, I've been I just read a book and I tried to apply it exactly as the author said, and I read another book and I tried to apply that exactly as the author said, and that really stumped me and I'm curious to hear You're on your opinion on that. But I spent a lot of years voraciously reading and like just kind of, you know, trying to kind of like do the things that I read in that book when I got a little bit of motivation, but I'm not that author and not that author's entire program might necessarily apply to me. And once I kind of switch that to be like, I don't need to retake everything in this book, but I'm just gonna take the bits and pieces that kind of like work with me and like who I am and just keep tailoring my own recipe right to like, eventually greatness, and I believe it will lead to greatness, I refuse to believe anything else. You know, but like, that is something that tripped me up for a long time. And I'm curious to hear your stance on that, right? Like, once I stopped trying to do something exactly the way it was being recommended, and started putting my own spin on it. And, you know, really figure out like, what vibe with me, like, what made me feel alive, that's when things really started to change.

Luke Fenwick 25:50

I think it's critical. And that is what impacts so so many people is that they are looking or comparing themselves with other people. And sometimes it is from the self help staff, or it might be people in their community and kind of saying, well, I've read this book, but it's not it's not working for me, or why can I start off or discouraged or based off discouraged, and then they kind of quit, that's when people really start to dig in and understand, okay, well, this, this is my backstory. And then they start to get into that whole reason on you know, who they are, and what they want, and why those things are important, then all of a sudden, those things start to click a little bit more versus trying to look at this through the lens of a particular author at the exact same way as a particular author was doing it. Because you can't, like only find the things that resonate with you, you need to find the things that are going to enable you to emotionally connect with what you're trying to achieve. You can't emotionally connected all the time to everything that a particular author says, or very, very rarely, like our lives just don't work that way. So don't try to find the things that work for you apply it to your your life and the way you are and how you want to go forward and, and take it from there. And, and I think that's part of just letting go and accepting a little bit more. This is who I am. This is what's going on. That's my story. And this is how I move forward. Versus I need to read that and do exactly what that person saying.

Sean Oldham 27:22

And I think this is a good time to kind of expand because you talked about you know BJ Fogg and tiny habits and like, obviously, we we get our tools, you know, we develop some of our own through trial and error, and we get some of our tools from other experts, because why in the hell would you not utilize other experts tools that like have have gotten very, very solid results with your clients? Right? Like, my goal is to have your clients lives catch on fire in a good way. Right. So, but how do you how do you incorporate that? Like, what's your process? Right? Like the BJ Fogg book tiny habits is obviously, you know, like a big, big impact. You know, explain those more detail, you know, where like, you know, where the tiny habits focus came from? And how do you how do you work that in?

Luke Fenwick 28:04

Okay, so I'll talk to you really briefly what I do so very early on with clients, like the first few weeks, I'm asking clients to spend all of their time on clarity for themselves. So I get them to do a thing called thrive, survive and crushed. I'm not sure if we've spoken about that before on the on the podcast. So I asked them over a number of weeks to look at the things in life that make them thrive. Great energy, this is what life's about amazing, incredible, what are the things are surviving. So I just need these to exist in my life. Some people say it's a relationship, some people say it might be going to the gym or eating healthy. And then what are the things that are crushed diving in their life, so take away the time, opportunity and energy to do the good things for them. So once they start to have all of those things really clear in their mind? I asked them then to say okay, what is their headline statement that you are looking to create with our time together? So what is it about? Is it about living life in a compassionate and giving way? Is that a style of how you want to be as a parent, like what are the things that we're working on? Once we're clear on that powerful reason on, this is why I'm here, this is who I am. This is what goes on in life. This is why I'm here. Once they clear on that. I then ask them to start to form habits I get them to do an exercise, create five easy to do habits that lead you to your headline statement, three medium to do habits that lead you there and too hard to do habits that lead you there. Then over the course of five or six weeks, I get them to create an implement all of these habits like week after week after week, depending on how successful they're feeling. So the end of those five or six weeks, they've got 10 new powerful habits that are doable, because they've created them not me that are leading them to their headline statement. And why this works is because they get the opportunity to you know, to celebrate their success along the way I asked them to do that with the journaling work they do so that starts to release you know chemicals in them. I asked them to share happiness with people around them, and then that starts to lock things in as well. And because they've done this thrive survive crash dive, they can see the times where these habits can also fit into their life naturally. And, you know, that's kind of what I do, you know, you know, hopefully a minute or two shared what I do with clients around using tiny powerful habits to lead you to where you want to get to.

Sean Oldham 30:22

Hmm, I like that a lot. And that's science back to so that's that's definitely why you're having success with your clients and having your best coaching month ever because, you know, that's that's science backed, right? It's building and it's just right. At the end of the day. I don't know why I keep forgetting to have a mirror next to me when we do these but that's what coaching is right? Like you're just you're holding up a mirror. And you know, like, again, you want greatness leaves clues. I'm going to reference Brendon Bouchard, high performance habits, where clarity is the number one high performance habit, right? high achievers, high performers have an immense amount of clarity. Now, this subject comes up again and again on our show, but you know, clarity, right? Why is why is clarity, like a high performance indicator and to somebody like I guess, Luke? Well, I want to go beyond this, right? And just kind of saying that it is a high performance, you know, indicator because I'm thinking like a listener. Like if I didn't understand this yet, if I'm thinking about myself 10 years ago, you know what I mean? Like still kind of like in my alcoholic stupor, or just thinking about anybody who's underachieving. Right? How do they hear that? and have it not pissed them off? Like, yeah, okay, clarity, I get it. But like, you know, how does somebody who's like thinking that maybe they can do better? Maybe life can be better? But you know, how do you get them to understand that clarity piece and the importance of like, reflection and getting clear on? First of all, like, what makes you happy? and what doesn't, you know, let's start with the basics, right. But like, you know, the high achievers, the very common denominator, and the incredibly high achieving people is clarity, they go back to it, often, they don't just set goals and never look at them again, right? Like, everything is a process, everything is a process. And they'll crystal clear on what they want to achieve vacation spots where they want to go people they want to work with, like it's always on the board. And they're evaluating and then re evaluating. And some people think it's more work, but like that level of organization, and clarity actually gives you more time back, because you can also schedule in fun time and free time. You know what I mean? Like it's a, I think it's a starting point. And it's crucial, but you know, how do you get somebody to understand that Luke?

Luke Fenwick 32:30

Well, what I've learned from being around some really successful people, like, high net worth individuals is they look at it. It's also part of a failure piece, like they will say, fail fast, like, give it a go, have clarity, what is working for me, in this particular environment? How do I understand that? How do I dig into it, and if it's not working, then I'm failing fast. And that's kind of part of this kind of trial and error piece that I think a lot of people just don't want to do, they are afraid of filing, they will absolutely deliberately not give things a go, because they're worried about how they're going to look to other people. They look in front of their family and friends. And that is a real challenge. So for me, it's fall fast, give it a go, have clarity, and be honest, like, why are you doing this? Why is it not working? Why are you where you are right now versus where you think you would like to get to? And then you can start to go, Okay, what are the steps going to get there. And, you know, until you wake up to what's going on in your life, then you're not going to make changes, I didn't wake up to what was going on for many, many years until it was an absolute shit show. And, and you know, and I was at the point of just falling apart because I just thought the things that I was doing was leading me in the direction I wanted to go in and it wasn't you know, there was some great things that were going on that enabled me to do great jobs and make a lot of money and all this stuff, not a lot of money but you know, comfortable money. But there was all these other habits and behaviors that were just poor and until I had clarity and woke up to it and really looked at myself I would have just kept on doing it. So clarity is is key you cannot go anywhere or make changes without these is just just impossible if you're not honest with yourself.

Sean Oldham 34:28

Yeah, yeah, well, I look like my life. Pre 30s post 30s one had clarity one didn't write and like the like knowing what I wanted and like finally starting to have some self dialogue and like allow myself to want things and not think money was evil, allowed things to start happening right. So like without clarity like that was step number one, nothing happens. But then that is a greatness clue. Right? That is also a greatness clue is like clear journal, do whatever you can to get the thoughts from being a jumbled mess in here to getting out and being on The page, right? It's an incredibly cathartic process. And there's a word for it when you write, I can't think of it. But like the process that's happening in the mind, it's gonna bog me, but it's a scientific term. But it's genuinely like any process of slowing things down. And getting clear with your thoughts. And having Convo with yourself is an incredibly cathartic and soothing process. And there's a reason that incredibly successful people do this, and that it's correlated between the 1000s of people that are high achievers that they interviewed, that clarity was number one. So I mean, it's hard to argue that right?

Luke Fenwick 35:31

Could not agree more. Absolutely. But if there's one thing by yourself a journal, take the opportunity to dig into what is going on in your mind. Sean, I know that we've just spoken about some, like incredible people that have inspired us or impacted our lives, but I know you are a big fan of this particular take and this quote is from from Will Smith, and it says greatness is not this wonderful, esoteric, illusive, godlike feature that only the special among us will ever taste. It's something that truly exists in all of us. It's very simple. This is what I believe and I'm willing to die for it, period. It's that simple.

Sean Oldham 36:11

Yeah, I love Will Smith. I absolutely love Will Smith, I think he's a phenomenal human being. And, you know, like, he's an open book. There's very little not to like about Will Smith. You know, but going from like a goofy kid that did not have a silver spoon upbringing to you know, becoming one of the most famous celebrities in Hollywood and you know, just like a genuine good person. He, there's he went on a spree there a couple years ago, where like, he was just blowing up the internet with a lot of like, viral like, you know, motivation and self love and all of these different things. And this this quote, just like, it jumped out at me, like I heard this when I needed to hear it, same kind of concept. And there's other quotes that he said, where he's like, you just have to believe, and then just just do, right, like, he's got another quote, where I'm gonna paraphrase, but it's something along the lines of, there's this common and again, clues of greatness, right? He's like, there's this common thread that all that like, true, really successful people have. And that's a borderline delusional belief that everything is going to work out in their favor, right? I know, that's not this quote, they all have power, but like, really think about that. Right? Like, really think about what that like, the simplicity of like, what that quote means is that if you're not where you think you should be yet, where are your beliefs? You know, what I mean? Like, to what level? Do you believe it's possible for you, right, like, I, I just got into some interesting studies on beliefs, you know, separate to this, and actually was working on a post today, I didn't get it finished before, you know, we got this episode up. But you know, it's like, finish this sentence, for example, right? Money is the root of all evil.

Right? Like, there's a lot of people that finish that sentence, only one way, you know, that, like, grew up hearing things, like money doesn't grow on trees, you know, what I mean? Like, unfortunate inception, that came from loved ones that formed the beliefs of those people that, you know, money was hard to come by, you know, like, like, money is, like limited, like, you know, that just don't have a good relationship with money. Right? And if that's what you believe, it's, it's unfortunately going to come true, right? And the simplicity in that message, and the simplicity in this message? is, it is simple. It really, is that simple. Are you willing to believe? Are you willing to believe to a level that will allow you to keep showing up even when things are not going very well? And are you willing to believe enough to push through those moments and like, push through the discomfort, you know, and then you know, that's what it is, right? Like, it's the lack of belief and the fear that keeps a lot of people from pushing through. And another thing this man said, that I love is, you know, like that, like some of the greatest things in life, are directly on the other side of fear. You know, so if you allow yourself to wrestle with fear, right, to wrestle with what makes you uncomfortable, and actually push through to the other side of that enough times, first of all, your comfort zone gets a lot bigger, and life gets a lot more interesting. You know what I mean?

Luke Fenwick 39:24

Yeah, well, that goes back to the Goggins stuff that we're talking about. And it's not just just a David thing. It's many other people, like, you know, walk towards your fear. Don't sit on your couch, trying to talk yourself through this, like get up, take that immediate physical action and get going because when you make action, then your emotions will follow that it's not about sitting there and going, Okay, I'm going to a thought think my way through it, physically move, like, get up and go towards it. Like that's the key here. Like that's what this is about, like all of these things are about creating actions to hit towards your greatness and often that is physically doing something, writing it down, creating a plan, picking up the phone and speaking to an expert within it's finding something on the internet, like whatever it might be go towards it like, and when you're around the rock.

And just pound the rocks, pound the rock until it breaks. Yeah, I just keep on going.

Sean Oldham 40:18

It's like Stephen Covey says, right, sharpen the saw, always sharpen the saw, you know.

Luke Fenwick 40:24

When, when you're talking about beliefs, it's Marie Forleo that says, our beliefs create our thoughts, and our thoughts create our feelings and our feelings, create actions. Now actions create our results, something along those lines. And when we think you nailed it, actually, when we can control our beliefs, everything, everything changes for us. And again, the belief is not necessarily just sitting there and doing nothing about it, it's going back to the clarity, it's the writing, and it's the the making impact on the back of it. So I think what you're talking about there with beliefs is just absolutely critical to get a handle on it. If you want to make change and have a level of greatness. level of greatness doesn't necessarily mean that you're an NBA champion. your level of greatness might be to be an absolutely amazing parent. Great. Yeah. Awesome. Go!

Sean Oldham 41:12

Yeah like get out of the comparison game and just figure out what you want to be great at, you know, and like, get after it. Right. And like, yeah, yeah, it's, again, men greatness does leave clues, just get out there. And just like, don't read the story of anybody who's achieved anything. And you know, you're gonna see a very different take than the natural talent myth that you may or may not have had. I did, right. Like, that's kind of why I like I like debunking that myth is that I did believe that for a while natural talent could never have done it. But you know, I'm a BC boy here in Canada, Steve Nash, two time MVP in the NBA, absolute Absolutely. Not the most athletic specimen in the NBA, right. But he got every single ounce of talent out of his body with effort and sheer determination will, right?

Luke Fenwick 42:01

Well, you know, got your Jordan man, I know that and I didn't want to get back in the sports. But they said that Michael Jordan was the most motivated, supremely gifted athlete that they had seen. And that was the motivated part because there is that old story that he didn't make his high school basketball team and all this kind of stuff. And there were failings early on when the pistons kept on beating him. But he kept on working and working, working, and, you know, pushed himself through whatever method you know, some people might...

Sean Oldham 42:28

You might not agree, you might not agree with, like, how he pushed his teammates and his teammates have mixed messages about him, but they're all grateful that they played with them.

Luke Fenwick 42:36

Well, they wouldn't have been a champion without him.

Sean Oldham 42:39

Yeah. And that's the thing, right? Like, there's another thing again, that Goggins says, and then I'm gonna ask you, then we're gonna get into the kids segment here. But, you know, like, Goggins says that, you know, to succeed, you know, you have to suffer. And that if you want to be maybe mediocre, then don't make waves, right? Because you're competing with the largest talent tool on the planet, right. So if you want to be mediocre, don't make waves. But if you want greatness, get ready to make a large wake and have people get caught in your waves and get pissed off and, you know, have a lot of comments and have a lot of things to say, because what is very true, what is always true, is that the people making noise, the people talking all of the noise in the garbage, they're not in front of you, they're behind you, right? Because somebody in front of you has no interest in kind of looking back and slandering you or talking about what you're not doing, right? Because you're too focused on paying in front of that person, and moving forward and helping others move forward. Right? Like if you're, if you're sitting there, you know, on the keyboard, and just like, in this, like, like this, this looks so comfortable, just being like a tough guy, you know, behind your keyboard and telling everybody why they're wrong in so many ways, but then go and do it, go and do it, then, you know, like, it's not that easy. So that is one thing that if you want to commit to like jumping out and like really going after greatness, sure, canopus some people off, you're gonna have some people, you know, like, come out of the cheap seats and be haters. So, you know, that's something that is just, it's unfortunate, but it's it's a byproduct of the more that you achieve.

Luke Fenwick 44:19

Yeah. And then then that goes back into the old adage that don't find your gratification from all of these other people, you know, stick to what your greatness is, why you're there, what you're looking to achieve what's important to you. And don't tie it to any of this external stuff. Because that's, that's playing with fire.

Sean Oldham 44:38

Yeah, no it's not external. It's It's It's an inside job. It's an inside job. Okay, so kids now right greatness, like, you know, how do you raise your kids? How much pressure do you put on them? Right? Like, I don't have the answers, but you know, for you, when you connect their achievement to greatness and being proud of your kids together? Is it this is it one in the same?

Luke Fenwick 45:00

I reflect back on, on a moment when I didn't do well at school in high school or something like that. And my dad kind of said to me "oh, you know, I can't talk about you to other men at the pub, because I'm not proud of you and your achievements at school". And that , well it's clearly stuck to me until this point time, because I'm bringing up now, that did not offer one ounce of motivation for me at that point in time in regards to connecting him being proud with a level of whatever his perception of greatness or achievement was. And so for me, and the story that I have for myself, is that no, I won't be connecting, being proud of my child with them achieving whatever level of is it an A plus, or, you know, winning the basketball game, or whatever it is, I think, and I think about this a lot. And I don't know if it's correct, but does that matter? I think my level of I'm proud of you will be when I can look at my kid and they can look at me and say I've given everything that I could to that. I've tried, and maybe I failed, and maybe, I don't like it now that I've given, given it a go. I've tried as best I can. And dad, that's that's where I'm at. And I'll go, Okay, I'm proud of you. Doesn't matter if you failed, you've given it a go. And most people wouldn't do that. And I think that's the angle. Not the angle, because it's not a play. But I think that's just how how I want to be I think that's the conversation I want to have with my kids is that as long as you're giving it a go, as long as you said that you've tried as long as you've, you've given it your best, and then whatever happens on the back of it, I'll be okay with I'll be proud of that.

Sean Oldham 46:54

Yeah, no, I yes. Yes, I agree with you. Because it's not it's not our life. Right. I think we lose sight of that a lot. Right? Like we're raising is almost like the wrong word. You know, like when you raise cattle, you know what I mean? Like, you know, it's not that you just said I just I thought of this before, and you know, it's like i the only thing the only thing that is important to me is is is just kind of like work ethic and how you treat other people right you know, if if if my kids have strong work ethic and you know treat other people well and understand that like happiness, joy fulfillment or an inside job, then I'm good right? Like determine your own success, right determine what success means to you. But I'm not going to live through my kids I refuse to write my parents didn't live through me and I'm not going to live through my kids.

Luke Fenwick 47:49

No, and and I don't think you can hold the hold them up to this crazy idea that everything needs to be perfect and kind of when I was saying before, to be proud that they've put the effort in, but it's also you know, realizing where things are, they need to go, this is not for me, okay, I'm okay with this. This just not being for me, I'm going to do the things and focus my time and energy as in the child, focusing their time and energy on doing the things that will lead to their greatness, whatever age that starts to resonate, because it's not about saying I need to do everything at max energy and effort all of the time, when this is just not on my path. And I think that's, you know, I think that's something to be mindful of too. But I'll ask us to Sean, with our kids growing up in a world that doesn't much resemble the one that we grew up in? Absolutely. How do we help your kids find their passions so they can focus on one day achieving greatness?

Sean Oldham 48:47

I love this question and awesome question. I should I should finish by saying that like them achieving greatness is not a prerequisite for me, right? Like like whether they achieve like greatness or not, Will not you know, change kind of how I see them in my life. It's like if they can say before I leave this earth, that they are fulfilled like that is what matters more to me right that like that, like they like like that joy or like feeling happy is not a result of anything external or like chasing anything right outside of themselves. You know, that will that will be to me like the the mark of greatness. But what I meet with the passions piece, right is how will I help them find their passions is nobody's perfect, right? And like, you know, my parents were the most loving parents you could ask for right that sometimes, you know, butted heads and didn't have the best ways of communicating with each other. But you know, because of their because of how they grew up. they they they did very well, like both physiotherapists, like they live very amazing lives and gave me every possible opportunity. But you know, it took me a while to get going, not because of anything they did intentionally, but How they grew up with money. There was really like money super hard to come by mentality, right like so like the the money doesn't grow on trees thing to be careful, like really question every purchase and like pragmatism is good to a degree right? But I was I was really told to like you know fear money and like that like the you got to be careful with money you really got to plan like and just I just remember coming away with this like money easily I just don't like money, like money just doesn't sound fun. And that was a belief that I had to get past, right, because I started making more and more money in my career. But it all went into lifestyle, right. And I didn't have any more to save because I didn't ever get interested in the topic or like, grow up with the you know, I got taught that it was pragmatic to save, but never any how tos, right? Never any lessons. Never. This is how you be an entrepreneur. And that's fine, right? Like, I still had an amazing childhood. And on the other side, you know, I had, you know, my mom who because it was her view, and she was trying to protect her son, there was a lot of will be careful, because that's really hard. And if that doesn't work out, you want to have a plan B, so unknowingly, I was always getting the you know, like having have a backup plan instead of I like that, what can you do to get there, right? Like you're passionate about this. So what can we do to cultivate that, and I've let go of any and all resentment, you know, I don't hold any, I recognize it now. And I needed to recognize those patterns to break free and like become an entrepreneur and become, you know, semi successful investor on my way to becoming a very successful investor. But, you know, I was blocked, right, those blocks were in there. And I'm very aware of that, right? I don't hold grudges against my parents. I've taken a long route on this question here. But that's what I mean by finding their passions, when I start to hear the clues that they give me that they're passionate about things. I'm going to help them explore that to the end of the earth if it's necessary. And I'm also going to teach them that it's possible, but it's going to be effing hard, right? Because anything worth having is hard. It is possible, are you willing to put in the work, I'm here with you, you know, I can help you wherever you need. But it's got to go. It's got to come through you. Right. And that's how I want to parent because I want to I want to learn from like, because parenting is tough, right? Nobody does it perfect. But I think what we should be doing is looking at, you know, what are our parents do? What did they get? Right? What did they get wrong? How can I improve? No matter how hard we try, we're gonna screw some things up anyways. Right? So it's just about trying to, you know, like, improve it as we go, right? improve the model, right and give our kids a better chance and not a better chance just by supporting them financially, but by the right mix of having them have to work hard, and not just get everything they want all the time, right, because that also sends the wrong message. So I just realized how hard my next 20 years are going to be.

Luke Fenwick 52:41

There's a few, there's a lot of nuggets of gold in there. And I think certainly, you know, we can't blame our parents in their mind, I'm sure they thought they were doing the best thing that they could whatever that actually looked like. And there's a challenge there. I think the challenge also with the education system that we have at the moment is it is so short and sharp with what kids are taught, and they don't have the opportunity to deep dive into things that they are passionate about. And that's the job is, as you said, for us as parents to go this is where their passion lies, or let's go into that to see whether or not that is something that should be the long term for them, and how much they really, really enjoy it. They just don't get that in the education system for the most part. But maybe that's another topic altogether. So let's start to bring this thing to a close, I know that we're heading around the hour mark. So Sean, is you've now pushed through more than a year of this technically unemployed self employed, how important has it been for you to have a clear understanding how much work it takes to achieve any level of greatness, and I know that you're starting to touch on it then, but just really give us some goal to take us home.

Sean Oldham 53:46

Yeah, no. Again, man, it's been a big transformation. Right. And that's why I like to help clients that, you know, are kind of in need of a transformation, you know, what I mean? Like is like, in need of, you know, a little bit of reprogramming a little bit of a reboot, right, and get out of old beliefs because, like, I've had to get out of alcoholism, shitty beliefs, horrible habits, mountains of debt. You know, and it's been, it's been a grind, man, it hasn't always been fun, right? But like, doing this research, like becoming a voracious reader becoming curious and how habits work. Like that was step one. And, and yet I have a lot of work to do, right to become a genuine contributing member of society. But really understanding that like, okay, nobody's coming to hand me, like, nobody's coming to hand me a handout or like, give me any charity or anything like that. Like, frankly, nobody cares. And that's okay. Right. Like, you go through your teens thinking everybody's thinking about you all the time. You go through your 20s thinking, you know, you're invincible and like you're making the things important that are really trivial. Your 30s you start realizing, you know that people weren't actually thinking about you that much. And then your 40s and beyond, you realize they were never actually thinking about So let's just do this thing, you know what I mean? And it's like, you know, knowing that like really understanding like how like, the success path for certain people, you know, like reading Kobe Bryant's autobiography, like getting into the autobiographies for a while and like understanding how some people that when you only see the end result of it, you think, man, they're so lucky, right? But then you start reading some of the stories of some of these people and what they've achieved and you're like, Okay, alright, I got it. Let's do this doesn't matter how long it takes. Let's do this. Right?

Luke Fenwick 55:33

Absolutely. You know, people see when the when the show lights are on on center court, and they don't see all the other stuff that's happened to lead them to that point in time, they are caught up in the fairytale of this is just easy, and it's not anything you wish to achieve. Anything that you wish to achieve that is important, is going to come with some challenge. That is just the nature of it.

Sean Oldham 55:57

I don't want to finish with this loop because I just thought of it. But Brian Tracy has a quote where, you know, you're doing what is easy, leads to a hard life. Doing what is hard leads to an easy life. Abs, right? So lean into that, right? There's another greatness glue, hugely, immensely successful entrepreneur and self help guide, Brian Tracy is getting older in the years now. But I've read some of his books, and they're phenomenal. But, you know, again, we've tried to leave you with as many clues as we can on on greatness today. And like different examples, our own our kids and like a lot of different people look into some of the books we mentioned, because there's some power there. But you know, really, at the end of the day that this episode to me was about, you know, exactly that, right? Like just debunking the myth of natural talent and like, hopefully, hopefully inspiring a person or two to like, you know what I'm gonna start I'm gonna start thinking about another project I can take on or I'm going to think about that second act I was putting off, you know, or I'm gonna I'm gonna think about maybe starting a business or just starting a side hustle because like, why not? You know, if any other humans do it, then so can I and just step one, step one.

Luke Fenwick 57:03

Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head. Why not you? If you're sitting there listening to that at home right now? Well, why not you? Why can't you be that person that does absolutely amazing things in your life? Whatever that might be.

Well, that you know, thank you everyone. And if you can, if you've enjoyed it, like, share, subscribe, hit that subscribe button. We'll see you in a few weeks for the next episode. Be safe, be present, be you.

Sean Oldham 57:33

And as always, please be fulfilled.

Luke Fenwick 57:36

Awesome. Bye for now.